Shadows, Law, Fulfillment and Olive Trees
March 27th, 2005I am making this post simply to discuss a comment on a previous post. The only reasons I have for doing this are because my reply is very lengthy for a “comment” and it (the comment) reflects a very common view of Law (Torah). It is not in any way meant to “expose” someone or embarrass, as the comment is viewable by anyone on this site. It’s a good topic and lengthy, discussion; these are my reasons for making a new post. To view all the comments go here.
Comment:
Shane, the word fulfill does not mean abolish. Fulfill means “to bring to accomplishment.” The Law has been fulfilled. We are not bound to the Law or bound by the Law. We are saved by grace. The Law corresponds with living a moral life in many cases, but we live out a moral life not out of obligation to keep the Law, but out of gratitude for the gift of salvation given to us. The feasts were all pointing to Messiah and were fulfilled in Him. Ceremonial law was structured to be fulfilled in Christ. Jesus didn’t abolish anything, but He did fulfill. Thus the feasts and sacrifices are no longer necessary because they were merely shadows of the reality which was to come, and has now come. Certainly much can be learned from their study, and celebrating Passover is certainly not wrong, but to ignore the crucifixion and resurrection allows one to miss the point.
My (long) reply:
Please forgive that I am very confused by several statements, though we do agree that fufill does not mean to abolish. Praise God! My concerns are of broad Hellenized (Greek) views of the Law. I fear these views do not account for the negative statements they make of God’s Law and Character. Moreover they do not account for the Hebraic view with which they were written.
Fulfill means “to bring to accomplishment.” The Law has been fulfilled. We are not bound to the Law or bound by the Law. We are saved by grace.
I agree that is a definition, but not necessarily the definition. However, I do not view this as a dividing issue. The issue becomes Sola Scriptura. I do not believe that I should possess a view that would have Scripture contradicting itself. Many people make a statement that we are not bound by the Law (Torah). Usually they are trying to distance themselves from the legalism brought on by some of the Pharisees (Paul was a Pharisee); they mean that we are not bound by the Law (Torah) for our salvation. This is of course correct, but they tend to miss the “flip-side” of what they are saying by making such sweeping statements. Why does bondage for salvation only come into the discussion when speaking of the whole Law (Torah)? It never seems to apply to the Decalogue (Decalogue comes from ten logos; from Greek meaning sayings, thoughts, words the same logos (Word) that became flesh in the opening verses of John ). When we speak testimony our first concerns should always be truth as well as how we represent God’s character.
No person was ever saved by works of the Law (Torah). To subscribe to the notion that the “old” covenant was of works is not only opposed to Scripture but it says “God gave legalism”. This is very dangerous.
to the extent that we propagate this view in our preaching and our teaching, we are guilty of bearing false witness.Carl D. Evans, The Church’s False Witness Against the Jews
The Law has always been a tutor and leads to Messiah. The “Old covenant” looked forward to Messiah and the “New covenant” looks back on Messiah. Please take time to reflect on this, we (any of mankind) were never “bound for salvation”; we were never condemned by the Torah. God gave salvation not condemnation. Paul’s writing tells us clearly that we are not under the condemnation of sin by being saved. Whether you choose to accept it or not, when you accept Messiah (at least) three things occur. You become a Jew and of the same history, you are circumcised (in your heart) and you receive the Law, all of it, in your heart. We will examine becoming a Jew later in this article, but it will be proven through Scripture, so rest assured.
To say that God ever gave legalism or condemnation not only is a mislabeling, but it applies to the person saying it! Before I explain, let’s examine something logically. If I believe that there are 10 sayings (commandments) or if I believe there are two great commandments, I am not guilty of legalism. But, if I believe that the Law (Torah) is the first five books of the OT (Tanakh), then I am “bound” or legalistic? If you have one or one thousands commands, the only problem is when you believe it is your salvation that your perception of the Law becomes a problem.
Somehow man has decided that you are free to do whatever you want as a Christian. It becomes apparent quickly that this makes no sense, so we then decide to say that we “should” do His will out of love. While I agree completely and I ask, where is the line is drawn? Nine laws we should obey (Sabbath abrogation)? It gets confusing because it is contrary to Scripture. Man cannot decide to change God’s laws. Only God can do this and He would be blatantly clear. (not hidden or implied) If you look at Jesus’ (Yeshua) teaching on murder, He was quite, crystal clear on His interpretation (fulfillment) of the commandment. It went beyond physical murder and brought it into ours hearts. That is a clear teaching. God gave His Law (Torah) clearly and He is not looking to get you on a technicality. The point I am making is the example of Sabbath. He was very clear when He gave it and yet we try to find single verses that refer to things, we claim are examples of service. (i.e. breaking bread is not service, it is eating otherwise we would have Sabbath everyday; see Acts) If the Sabbath Law were ever abrogated it would be directly stated by God alone and it would be very clear. (Thou shalt now obey the Sabbath of Rome) To think otherwise creates an inconsistency in Jesus’ (Yeshua) teaching: here He is clear; there He is silent and sneaky.
Make no mistake; man will try to change God’s laws and his calendar. It all came from Rome.
He will speak against the Supreme God and oppress God’s people. He will try to change their religious laws and festivals GNB
He will speak words against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High. He will intend to change religious festivals and laws HCSB
This king will speak evil of God Most High, and he will be cruel to God’s chosen ones. He will try to change God’s Law and the sacred seasons. CEV
– Daniel 7:25
God’s Sabbaths, Festivals, and Holy days are filled with times and laws (note plural). We are on a Roman week cycle/names, month cycle/names, Roman clock, etc. The teachings of the Law(Torah) being removed do not come from Judaism, which includes Jesus (Yeshua), Peter, Paul, etc. –they come from Rome.
“Until Heaven and earth pass away not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”
Messiah could not have been clearer. Not the least stroke of a pen shall disappear. The tiniest part of the Law (Torah) will remain until all is accomplished. Are Heaven and earth still here? Yes, then the Law remains. Has all been accomplished? No! Then the Law (Torah) remains. That may shock some, because people view His death and ascension as accomplishment in full. But remember, He said He came to fulfill the prophets. So, it honestly does not matter what anyone’s interpretation of fulfill is, since the prophecies in the OT run clear through to His second advent and IN the new Heaven and new earth. Nothing will disappear until ALL is accomplished. He came to fulfill the Law and the prophets… many prophecies were fulfilled, but not all. There are many more to be accomplished. “… not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished”
I said I would explain how mislabeling God’s Law (Torah) legalism or condemnation applies to us. As we read many scriptures, it is obvious that the Law remains intact, no matter how many statues you believe that means, it simply moves! It ceases being external pieces of stone and is written in your heart. If the Law it is legalism, then God is putting legalism in your heart.
I will give you a new heart and a new mind. I will take away your stubborn heart of stone and give you an obedient heart.
I will put my spirit in you and will see to it that you follow my laws and keep all the commands I have given you. – Ezek. 36:26 GNB, emphasis added
We must always ask ourselves: What are we saying of God and His Law? If we believe that people were ever “bound” to the Law (of God) for salvation then we are stating that God gave bondage as a means of salvation. That, my brothers and sisters, cannot be of our Lord. Just as Avraham believed (faith) before he was circumcised (works), God’s Law has been and always will be about faith, love, and His will for us. It points out our sin and brings us to the One (Yeshua) we need in our life to keep us on the narrow path. It is about internalizing His law out of love.
I mentioned earlier that I believe we cannot have theologies that cause contradictions in Scripture. The belief that the Law (Torah) is intact does not create contradictions. Paul does state many things that seem ambiguous but by examining context, they become clear. To believe that all or part of the Law (Torah) is null and void, as I once did, leaves us with Scriptures that cannot be explained and creates a contradiction. When this happens, we must examine the validity of our theology. It is scary and we can feel threatened. We must not harden our hearts because of a fear of leaving/losing what is comfortable. The more we choose to follow Jesus (Yeshua), the more holy (set apart) we will become and we will not resemble the world.
The following is a list of a few “contradictions” that exist when we believe that all or part of the Law is done away with.
start of list . . .
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt. 7:21, ESV
What is the will of God, The Father? His Law (Torah). Doing the will of God is something we will do AFTER we are saved by grace. His whole will shall be done and we should not be partial in obeying His Laws. The Law (Torah) leads us to The Messiah (HaMashiach) so that through Him, we may keep it. (Revisit Ezek 36:26 above)
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder!
Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”–and he was called a friend of God.
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.James 2:19-24, ESV
We may know Jesus (Yeshua) but how do we testify of Him, with our belief? Even the demons believe in Him. We testify with our actions rather than our words. Note that “God is one” is from the Sh’ma in the Torah (Duet. 6:4).
Of all the clean beasts take with you seven pairs, a male and his female; and of the beasts that are unclean two, a male and his female;
Gen 7:2, The Scriptures
Noah was instructed to load clean and unclean into the ark. How did he know what was unclean since this was before the “Levitical Laws”. (It is worth noting that “Ceremonial”, “Levitical”, “Ten Commandments”, etc., are manmade delineations and titles in/of the Law (Torah). The complete Law is the first five books of the Old Testament (Tanakh) )
“But concerning the gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should keep themselves from what is offered to idols, and blood, and what is strangled, and whoring.” – Acts 21:25, The Scriptures
Amazingly nearly all of mainstream Christianity misses some things in the verse; “blood, and what is strangled”. Oddly, one of the Apostolic teaching given here (after the cross) is not to eat blood, a part of the “Levitical” laws. Trying to find a verse that supports eating anything is not only out of context, but would create a contradiction with this verse. Both must co-exist. This is a “New Testament”, Apostolic teaching, yet how many Christians buy Kosher meat? Would Mad Cow Disease (carried in the blood) be of great concern for Christians if they abstained from blood as they were instructed? Some twist this Scripture into an all inclusive list. This would conflict then with the Sermon on the Mount and we would be free to murder and commit adultery. Obviously this does not make any sense.
A note for those that teach vegetarianism as doctrine: this is well and good and I do not disagree with consuming much less meat. But, should we not take comfort that Jesus (Yeshua) ate fish and lamb (He kept the Torah, thus Passover all His life)? Even after His resurrection, he ate fish. No doubt that God’s first choice was no meat and we will not eat meat in Heaven, but to follow the example of Jesus is not most accurately described as “second best”.
But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” Acts 10:14, ESV
Peter’s dream in fact had nothing to do with meat, but with men. What is odd is Peter’s declaration that after the cross he was still not eating “unclean” foods. If the “Levitical” Law had been “nailed to the cross”, why would Peter refer to something that was no longer “binding”?
Now when the day of Shavu`ot had come, they were all with one accord in one place. Acts 2:1, HNV
Today the Christian churches have a holiday handed down from Rome called Pentecost that claims to be this day. The only problem is, Pentecost is figured fifty days from Easter! Shavu`ot (pentecost) would be figured from Passover (Nisan 14); which this year is April 23rd, not in March (Easter). Thus my own confusion when I saw signs this Easter Sunday stating “He is risen” or services claiming “the Lord rose today”; it’s actually an entire month too early. Obviously the calculation of Pentecost has no Biblical foundation, but there is another “weird” thing happening in Acts 2:1. A “Ceremonial Law” festival is being observed after the cross! Some quickly will say that these were Jews. While that is true, it is also true that gentile converts were there: “both Jews and Gentiles converted to Judaism, and some of us are from Crete and Arabia—yet all of us hear them speaking in our own languages about the great things that God has done!” Acts 2:11
On every New Moon Festival and every Sabbath people of every nation will come to worship me here in Jerusalem,” says the LORD — Isaiah 66:23, GNB
This is a prophecy about Heaven where we will still be observing Sabbath (His, not Rome’s) and New Moon festivals. Earlier in the same chapter we see an interesting reference to unclean meat as the Lord returns: “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig’s flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD.” Isaiah 66:17
Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. – Zech 14:16, ESV
A prophecy of yet another “Ceremonial” festival that will be kept in Heaven.
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Romans 2:13, ESV
Paul is talking in his letter to Rome believers about doing the Law (Torah), after the cross.
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” — Romans 13:9, ESV
Notice the “Decalogue” commandments mixed with other commandments? “but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.” (Leviticus 19:18) This is not a “new” commandment but an old one from the Law (Torah)
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. — Romans 13:10, ESV
Notice the word fulfill here? It seems that in this after-cross-definition of “fulfill”; it does not mean to do away with or complete a contract. If Jesus fulfilled the law meaning to complete it once and for all as a contract, Paul would not write to Gentiles or Jews about fulfilling it through love.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. — Rev 22:14, KJVR
If the Law (Torah) or observing the full Law is legalism or wrong, then the question becomes: Does God’s Word tell us, in the New Testament that we will be cursed or blessed by doing His commandments? Revelation 22:14 gave us the answer.
Jesus (Yeshua) gave many commandments at The Sermon on The Mount; were they legalism? He also gave two great commandments:
“Teacher,” he asked, “which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus answered, ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
This is the greatest and the most important commandment.
The second most important commandment is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’
The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments.” — Matt 22:36-40, GNB
Notice that on these commandments hang ALL the Law (Torah). These commandments that Jesus (Yeshua) speaks of are not new but are found in the Old Testament Law (Torah). (Duet. 6:4; Leviticus 19:18)
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. — James 2:18, ESV
Since I do not want to quote the entire book of James, I would suggest that the entire book would be a contradiction to the Law (Torah) being nailed to the cross or the observance of the Law as legalism.
Lastly, it is important to note that for Paul the Law is and remains God’s Law (Rom 7:22, 25). The Law was given by God (Rom 9:4; 3:2), written by God (1 Cor 9:9; 14:21; 14:34), contains the will of God (Rom 2:17, 18), bears witness to the righteousness of God (Rom 3:21), and is in accord with the promises of God (Gal 3:21). Repeatedly and explicitly Paul speaks of “the Law of God.” “I delight in the Law of God in my inmost self” (Rom 7:22); “I of myself serve the Law of God with my mind” (Rom 7:25); the carnal mind “does not submit to God’s Law” (Rom 8:7). Elsewhere he speaks of “keeping the commandments of God” (1 Cor 7:19) as being a Christian imperative. Since God is the author of the Law, “the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good” (Rom 7:12).
. . . end of list
The concern of many is being able to give a verse to support their beliefs. This is, I believe, an incomplete methodology. All of Scripture must agree with your theology. An example of this is clean and unclean meats. Although people provide verses that seem to support their ideas to eat whatever they want, there are other verses that directly contradict (as shown above). Our understanding of Scripture should weave a single flowing garment, not bits and pieces sewn into a patchwork quilt.
SHADOWS
Thus the feasts and sacrifices are no longer necessary because they were merely shadows of the reality which was to come, and has now come.
I am assuming that this part of the comment is based in the following verse:
…which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.
— Col 2:17, The Scriptures
The first point often missed here is tense. These things are a shadow of things to come. The Greek (esti) here means are as opposed to Greek elsewhere in the NT which means were. (see below)
Greek word esti meaning ARE
Greek ane = WERE
Some English translations deprecate the Jewish holidays by gratuitously adding the word “only” or “merely” as stated in the comment. However, this is not in the original Greek and is easily verified.
With that understood, the rest of the verse falls into place: but, nevertheless, of even greater importance and value than the shadow is the body which casts the shadow, the reality behind it, because if is of the Messiah. — David Stern’s commentary on the Jewish New Testament
We should not think slightingly of the shadow… no less the divine promise of all Heavenly realities about to arrive. For only an actual body and one that is not far away casts a shadow.
– R.C.H. Lenksi
Because a shadow is of its substance does this make the shadow worthless and removable? Or rather, does it point us to the substance: Messiah? Remembering that all things have not yet been accomplished and that God’s will is done in Heaven (”Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven”), is the shadow removed? We have seen above that we will observe Sabbaths and Festivals in Heaven. Does it make more sense that the Law would be given, removed and then reinstated in Heaven; or that God’s law is eternal and the shadow points to this?
Passover is certainly not wrong, but to ignore the crucifixion and resurrection allows one to miss the point
I am unsure of the commenter’s understanding of Passover symbolisms (for Messiah, not the Exodus). The “but” in this statement implies that the latter part of the sentence refers to things that are lacking from Passover, the first part of the sentence. Moreover, the words “to ignore” seem to imply that it is almost purposeful. In my own experience, this comes from the ideology that Easter “added” something to Passover that it does not already have. (This is of course not the case for the “Christian” Passover.) Even so, I suspect most churches do not celebrate Passover and then “add-on” Easter. Additionally Easter, this year, is a month before the time of Jesus’ (Yeshua) actual crucifixion and resurrection. Passover is not just a worthy “tag-along” to Easter but it is the Biblical superior.
Olive trees
Worthy of note is that no covenant was ever made with the Gentiles. The covenants were made with Avraham (Abraham) and the new covenant was made with the House of Israel. This is the point of Romans 11. Paul’s epistle is about the Gentiles being grafted into the tree. After all, Jesus (Yeshua) was a Jew, not a Christian of gentile origin.
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, – Jer 31:31
… Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel …– Heb 8:8
In Romans 11, Paul is clear in his warning to the gentiles that are grafted in out of faith not to “boast” (v. 18) or to become “arrogant” (v. 20). The gentiles were but wild branches grafted into the olive tree (Israel, v.24), by God’s goodness to “share in the nourishing sap from the olive root” (v. 17). Paul speaks of the unity of Israel (the tree) and the Gentiles (grafted branches). He uses the Hebraic Old Testament (Tanakh) metaphors to explain this.
The LORD called you a thriving olive tree, with fruit beautiful in form– Jer. 11:16
His splendor will be like an olive tree.–Hos. 14:6
I am like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God– Ps. 52:8
Paul uses this symbol of the living and growing olive tree to show that the Jews and Gentiles are bound together into one tree. This is how the Church, firmly planted in Hebraic soil, finds its true identity.
Paul teaches that the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, “member of one body” (Eph.2:6b). Therefore the Gentiles have a new history – the history of Israel is now their history as well. When writing to the predominantly Gentile church of Corinth Paul states that the ancient Israelites were the forebears of the Corinthians:
… our forefathers were all under the cloud, and… they all passed through the sea(1 Cor. 10:1).
In the early Church then it is clear, the Jews and Gentiles claimed a common spiritual ancestry with the Hebrews of old.
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants and heirs according to the promise. – Gal 3:29, ISV
You Samaritans do not really know whom you worship; but we Jews know whom we worship, because it is from the Jews that salvation comes. – John 4:22 GNB, emphasis added
It is a Jewish Messiah and Jewish religion to which we are grafted. We must not look on a eastern book and religion with western eyes.
…the stronger a man’s Christian faith, the more Jewish will he regard himself
— Stuart Rosenberg, The Christian Problem: A Jewish View
The Bible… is a Jewish book. It cannot read and understood and expounded unless we are prepared to become Jews with the Jews
— Karl Barth, Church Dogmas
There is a grafting in that exists for us that are “far away”. We shall be brought together into one body. That body is Jewish, not Gentile and we will be brought into this one body. We will not create our own two thousand year old “non-Jewish” religion. This is the meaning of Jesus’ (Yeshua) words and the meaning of Paul’s Spiritual Israel.
… he was prophesying that Jesus was going to die for the Jewish people, and not only for them, but also to bring together into one body all the scattered people of God.
— John 11:51-52, GNB
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold – I have to bring them as well, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one flock, one shepherd
— John 10:16, The Scriptures
Shalom u’vrakah(Peace and Blessings)
March 28th, 2005 at 9:58 pm
Shane!!
Feeling prolific?
I am going to have to print this out and study it. So much of it makes sense–but I have some questions. I’ll try to sort it all out and get back to you.
March 30th, 2005 at 3:36 pm
Kristen, it started out as a small comment reply and just kept getting bigger. I may update it as I missed some things on the contradiction list like the “legalistic” affirmation of tithing by Jesus (Yeshua):
or the sacrifices by Cain (Kayin) and Abel (Hevel) before the “Blood Sacrifices” were given. Interesting that Abel used a sheep/lamb and Cain did not.
or these verses:
or the fact that the book of Revelation refers to the saints and those the dragon makes war with as commandment keepers and having faith in His Son. (Rev.14:12; Rev.12:17 )
Though it seems to me the list could go on and on. And Erik has suggested that I have already written something as big as another Gospel!
I look forward to your questions and hope I can answer them!
Shalom
March 30th, 2005 at 4:34 pm
Just found this Shane. I hope you don’t mind if I don’t go point by point on this, as I don’t have that kind of time!
Just a couple of basic thoughts. I understand the “Jewishness” of Christianity to the point of being grafted into the tree of Abraham. No problem there. And yes salvation has always been accomplished the in the same manner — through faith, not through legalism. On these points we agree (at least I think we do. I may have got lost in the words once or twice above!)
As to the shadows, yes they point to Christ but our focus is not to be on the shadows but upon Him. That’s the point of the passage you referenced.
The “keeping of the law” is a reference to the moral law. All of the Law and the Prophets hang on the Greatest Commandments…love God and love others. If you can do that perfectly then you have kept the Law. The trouble is, nobody but Jesus has done it. He lived the life which fulfilled the Law. But before I get back to fulfilling, we keep the commands of God because we want to please Him. That’s the way it’s always been. We are not under compulsion to keep the Law for salvation (I believe we agree on this point also) but keep the Law out of love. Keeping the law isn’t legalism if the intent is not to secure salvation.
Now the question becomes, do we keep all of the Law? What about the sacrificial system? That is a part of ceremonial law which is no longer kept by any group I am aware of. Why not? Where in Scripture can you justify doing away with the sacrifices (because they were fulfilled in Christ) but not do away with Jewish holidays? My contention is that Christ fulfilled those in exactly the same way He became the ultimate sacrifice.
Gentile Christians in the book of Acts did essentially become Jewish, but they were not required to live up to the Jewish Law by any means. Circumcision immediately comes to mind, but the whole discussion at the Council in context was about essentially “how Jewish a Gentile Christian needed to be.” They were told to keep away from blood and idol food, but why were they not instructed to keep the festivals or become circumcised or any number of other distinctives of Judaism?
I have no problem with anyone celebrating Passover or the Festival of Booths or any of the others, but to claim that we are required by the Law to do so mitigates against Scripture. The prophetic utterings of these festivals being celebrated in heaven is not a command that they must continue to be celebrated until that time. It is also very likely that their mention in prophecy is symbolic of something even more special than a Jewish festival.
I don’t have any problem with anyone not celebrating Christmas or Easter provided they are not denying the events which are celebrated.
Finally, back to fulfillment, your explanations have not changed the fact that Christ lived up to the terms of the agreement which none of the rest of us could. All was accomplished in His life, death and resurrection.
Thanks for you lengthy response, but if you would, could you let me know if you take this discussion to another thread so we don’t leave each other hanging? Thanks!
March 30th, 2005 at 6:09 pm
1: If your focus is on Christ, then you would naturally keep the Feasts. (Assuming you know.) Does Christ no longer ‘cast a shadow’. Do we have the fullness of Christ now? No. Not this side of Heaven. We are still on earth. We are not perfect, yet. Question for you Rev-Ed. What or how did Christ ‘fulfill’ in Shavu’ot(Feast of Weeks or Pentecost)? Rosh HaShanah(Yom Teruah)? Day of Atonement/Day of Judgement(Yom Kippur)? How about Sukkot(Feast of Tabernacles or Feast of Booths)? [All are listed in parts of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Especially Leviticus 23.]
2: No where in Scripture does it divide the Torah(Law) into convenient categories as you have described; such moral law, ceremonial law, etc. If you can show me, please do as I am willing to learn. To further assume that the Feasts are not ‘moral’ is a bad leap of logic and reads into the text something that it does not say(i.e. eisegesis). God gave them. Anything God gives is moral. Therefore the Feasts are moral. To go even further and say that the Feasts are part of the ‘sacrificial system’. Where can you prove this in Scripture, that the Feasts are part of the ‘sacrificial system’? In the Torah(Law), in Leviticus and Numbers there are sacrifices made every day. On holy days and non-holy days. Furthermore, whenever the Feast are given by God, He always says you shall observe them forever, not just until The Christ comes. Additionally, they are never described as the Feast of the Jews. Not once. They are always described as the Feasts of the LORD. Whenever you see ‘LORD’ in all capitals, it means in the original Hebrew, it is God’s personal name. i.e. YHVH. That would make it His personal ‘stamp’. They are His personal Feasts; NOT the Feasts of the Jews! See Lev. 23.
Love God and love your neighbor are written in the Torah(Law). See Deuteronomy 6:5 and Lev. 19:18. The first five books of the Bible are the Torah(Law). Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. When the Jewish people kept those two commandments they ‘kept the Law’, yet they were still obligated to keep the Feasts.
The ‘sacrificial system’: Christ is the sacrificial system. When John the Baptist saw Yeshua(Jesus) he called Him “the Lamb that takes away sin of the world” See John. I Corinthians calls Yeshua(Jesus) our “Passover Lamb”. Hebrew and Revelation calls Yeshua(Jesus) our High Priest(just like in the OT), who is in Heaven. Our Mediator. He is in Heaven right now making intercession for us. He “lives to make intercession for us”. See I or II John??? (I think.) We became the Levitical Priesthood. “you are a peculiar people, a holy priesthood”. See I or II Peter. There is a tabernacle in Heaven. See Hebrews and Revelation. Christ is our sacrifice. When I sin, what do do? I ‘boldly go before the throne of grace’ and plead the blood of the Lamb(ie Christ). Salvation is not a one time work on our part. A covenant of work. It is an ongoing relationship God, made possible through His only Son Yeshua(Jesus) (Note: I am not saying that Christ needs to be sacrificed over and over again. He was sacrificed, once and for all time. Both past(including OT), present, and future. See Hebrews.
3: Acts 15:20. This must be read carefully, in context. Acts 15 is talking about the motive of keeping the Torah(Law). Read the first several verses. i.e is the Torah(Law) for salvation? No. It never was. The list given to the Gentiles coming into the ‘Jewish congregations is a dietary list of sorts. Remember, many pagan cultural events centered around food. Sexual immorality, sacrificing to idols. It is a bare minimum for Gentiles, until they could pick up the rest(Hence, the reason for the list is given in verse 21) to come into the church, so that the Jewish believers could fellowship with them. Notice, what James does NOT say to the Jewish believers. He does not say, “Ignore those dietary laws in the Torah(Law)[Lev 11 and Deut 14]. Or the Torah(Law) was ‘fulfilled’ by Christ, we are no longer obligated to obey it. It would have been a perfect opportunity for James to say it. If your theory is correct, James should have turned around and corrected there insistence on the Torah(Law) after giving the list. James did not do anything close to that. He did not lower the bar for the Christian Jews, but raised the bar for Christian Gentiles coming into the congregation! The reason was given in verse 21. The Christian gentiles will pick up the rest of the Torah(Law) as they grow in Christ! Imagine trying to observe God’s Torah(Law) with out having a relationship with Him! Without love for God. That is the yoke that James talks about. Now imagine being a pagan who believes in Zeus, Athena, eating pig, sexual immorality(orgies), and suddenly finding out a little about this God of Israelites who sent His Son to die for us. Oh, and by the way, you have to observe all of these Laws to be saved by Him, even though you do not know or love Him or have a relationship with Him. THE DEMAND FOR OBEDIENCE WITHOUT RELATIONSHIP CAUSES REBELLION! If you doubt that it is only a cultural and ‘dietary’ list, look at the list. Why were they not told not to lie, murder, steal, etc.? These are strangely absent from list. James is giving a list of cultural prohibitions to separate the pagans who are in the process of coming to God, from their sinful culture and diet, as they embrace a relationship with Christ and His Torah(Law).
4:(I think this is your meaning, but I could be wrong. If so I am sorry.) I do deny what happened on Easter and Christmas because nothing happened on Easter and Christmas! Something happened on Passover. Christ died for us on Passover, not Easter. Christmas is not even close to when Christ was born. We know from the Bible, it could not have been in December.
May god love you!
Erik
March 30th, 2005 at 11:04 pm
Rev-Ed, I owe you an apology. I meant to post a comment stating that I moved the thread due to length but I forgot! That was thoughtless, I hope you will accept my apology. I am sorry.
To clarify, we definitely agree on salvation NOT being because of the Law (Torah) but because of Messiah. Salvation is by grace alone and not of works.
I don’t think that I am focusing on the shadows but rather they pointed me to Yeshua (and help keep me pointed to Him).
My opinion differs here as it would seem to “do away with Jewish holiday” would be the perspective that needs a verse. I view Scripture as not having a verse to do this.
With all due respect(and I mean that), this is the jump I addressed earlier. Define “required”? In your post you spoke of keeping two commandments keeping all the Law. I agree. I am merely defining “all of the Law”.
Remember when I stated that when I speak of “all of the Law” it is naturally assumed as a “requiring” (presumably for salvation?). Why would that not apply to two commandments? 613 or two… it is out of love. If I get my commandments from the Bible, why would it be “requiring” from me, if getting two commandments is not “requiring” from you? Additionally, those two commandments are from the Torah.
While we do not agree here (meaning that ALL was accomplished prophetically speaking), that is okay.
The only question I have is: What do you do with the first part of the verse before fufillment? “Until Heaven and earth pass away not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law… “. The last part of the verse does not nullify the first and Heaven and earth have not passed away.
Your brother in Messiah,
Shane
April 2nd, 2005 at 12:49 pm
Shane and Erik - I hope you don’t mind if I try to do this with one reply and save us all some reading and some bandwidth!
First, I think we’re actually pretty close on what we’re saying. I do think that celebrating the festivals are wonderful ways to learn about and experience God, but what I got from the earlier posts is that if I do not do so I am somehow sinning. If I misunderstood, I apologize. That is the “required” definition you requested.
The fact that Jesus fulfilled the meaning of the festivals does, in fact, make them that much more meaningful. However I do not see the reasoning in continuing the celebrations as part of the Law anymore than continuing the sacrificial system as it was fulfilled in Christ as well. Erik gave beautiful description of the reasons Christians do not take part in the sacrificial system. I wholeheartedly agree. But in the exact same way, Jesus is the perfect Passover Lamb. Jesus is the Firstfruits from among the dead. It is through Jesus that we have atonement for our sins — our sins aren’t just “covered” anymore, but are taken away. Jesus paved the way for Pentecost which is when God gave us the new covenant written on our hearts. Jesus is our sabbath-rest. In those ways Jesus fulfilled them. Those are all I can do off the top of my head. If you want to know about the booths and such, I’ll have to do some study — All I remember are thumbnail sketches of a few festivals.
Shane, regarding your question about the first part of MT 5:18, it is entirely dependent upon the second part but there is more to it. The moral aspects of the Law are timeless. It is always evil to lie, steal, covet, etc. I know that Erik challenged breaking the Law into civil, ceremonial and moral, but that’s the way it breaks out. Again, if you consider that all of the Law will never pass away then what do you do with the sacrificial system. That was certainly a part of the Law. If you refuse to allow for the fact that some law is not moral law then you are ignoring part of the Law which Jesus said would never be changed. That is something you must consider.
Now for Erik’s interpretation of Acts 15:21. You make a good point about that verse, but the meaning you give it cannot be so. James cannot be telling Gentile Christians that they need to pick up the rest of the Law on their own, as the Law is now written on their hearts. In addition does not instruct them to be circumsized which was the original point of the Council to begin with! What James was doing was (1) a bit of appeasement toward the Pharisaic branch of Christianity, telling them that these Gentiles can always learn the rest of the Law. And (2) he was instructing these Gentile believers not to be stumbling blocks to the Jewish believers who knew the Torah and tried to keep all its commands. Paul had to address this subject at least twice (again off the top of my head) in Romans 14 and again in 1 Corinithians 8, reminding those who ate meat sacrificed to idols not to trip up their weaker brothers.
Your argument from absence that James missed a good opportunity to say… is all well and good, but you cannot make doctrinal claims based on an argument from absence. Even my circumcision argument above is close to that, but since circumcision is the question and is not included in the answer, I feel it is a very strong argument.
A couple of other notes: Yes, I know Jesus wasn’t born on Dec. 25 which is why I noted that I observed those holidays based on the events which are celebrated. I celebrate the Incarnation itself, not the day it happened. Just for clarification.
Apology accepted for forgetting to leave a note in the other thread. I just wanted to be sure that I hadn’t gotten in on the conversation a little too late to continue it. That’s happened to me before with my spotty schedule for visiting blogs. Glad we finally made the connection. I’m sorry it’s taken so long to get back to you, but I knew I was gonna need some time to get all of this typed up. Ten minutes are easy to find. 45 minutes gets pretty tough!
In Christ,
Ed
April 3rd, 2005 at 1:03 am
I am loving this discussion. Ed is bringing up a lot of my concerns and questions, so I’ll just keep listening.
I did print your post out, Shane, and am in the midst of reading it.
April 3rd, 2005 at 7:38 pm
Rev-Ed,
Do you want to know the Truth? If I show it to you the Bible, and prove it to you, will you change? Do you have a teachable spirit(ie attitude)? Are you willing to learn? If you prove me incorrect, I am willing to change. Are you?
May HaShem(The Name) love you,
Erik
April 5th, 2005 at 8:58 am
Why would you think otherwise? Do you actually think I’m just parroting back information that I didn’t fully investigate? I’ve been through so many studies and sidetracks that I feel confident in the conclusions I’ve drawn.
I am certainly willing to learn, although I’d be surprised if you have any perspectives which I have not already considered.
That said, I do know the Truth. He died for me.
April 5th, 2005 at 1:38 pm
Rev-ed, that is the truth indeed! But do not even the demons believe?
I think the reason Erik may have asked is simply this: To answer the questions you posed last time, for the most part, I will simply have to cut and paste from the original article.
Revvy… come now, mi amigo. There are many verses in the Bible about a man who thinks he is wise. (This of course includes me as well)
Please don’t take offense here my friend, but I am going to be totally honest with you. The perspective of many people that read the site is that you may be wrestling with these things. Your heart may be tugged at. There is a reason why this is the perception… because we all reacted the same way! For some Christians, it is harder to imagine that being a Christian means becoming a Jew. It sounds like Judaizing at first; I realize that. That is why I wrote the article about the Olive Trees. The Pharisee Paul spoke quite clearly about the spiritual grafting. Yeshua (Jesus) made it quite clear that He would bring us into one flock.
What you must understand is that in end-time prophecy there exists two women. One is a chaste virgin and the other is a harlot (and mother of harlots) drunk with the wine of her fornication (with other un-Godly religions). Rome is the mother of her harlots and her children hold onto bits and pieces of her doctrine. My wife was catholic so I am well aware how offensive this may sound. In the end-time prophecies, which woman is the devil wroth with? The dragon makes war with the commandment keepers and those having faith in His Son. (Rev.14:12; Rev.12:17 ) So this is obvious: the commandment keepers are on God’s side, but that does not mean that the commandments are their salvation. What you must now decide is which commandments are kept. The answer YELLS at you from the page… “those that keep the commandments of God”! We are left with two decisions and a third option that makes no sense at all.
1. The Law is His whole Law. Which will enable you to explain any apparent ambiguity and holds up under Scripture.
2. The “Ten Commandments” are His whole Law. Which leaves you with the many contradictions I listed that no person commenting on this article (and others) has even tried to explain. Thus, this would also leave you with His Sabbath. Proof? “Keep the commandments of God”. It won’t be Rome’s my friend. Rome has printed many publications taunting protestant religions (outside of the SDA and 7th Day Baptists) that observe the “Lord’s Day” because the change to Sunday was their change alone! (mother of harlots?)
3. There is a third perspective/option that teaches us that Yeshua is our festivals and Sabbaths and that He gave us only two great commandments on which hang all the Law (Torah). The latter part is true! The irony here is that the two commandments are quotes from the Torah! Also, quite simply, the Sermon on the Mount would have been pointless, and warning the Pharisees to continue tithing would make no sense. Indeed all the Law hangs on these two old commandments! And by loving the Lord our God, we would keep His Law out of love and not obligation! (It’s like He writes it in our hearts or something!) We would keep His Sabbath. Pause for a moment and really let that fill your heart. If we love Him we will keep His commandments! (John 14:15) His Sabbath that He alone gave and He said, “remember”! The only of the “ten commandments” that begins with remember. Yet we forget it while we remember not to murder, steal, lie, etc. Oh how we must sadden our Lord that we not only forget it, but also claim a new one! “He will try to change their religious laws and festivals”
Ed, I love you as a brother in Messiah. I truly mean that! What I fear you may be overlooking is that there is only one truth. That does not necessarily mean that I have it. But, we should all be striving for that same one Truth. That Truth is not of Rome, it is of God. Rome has fornicated with paganism and Gnosticism to bring us an “image” (of the beast). She has given birth to children that continue some of these lies. Remember that the entire world will marvel at the beast and worship its “image”.
Another example (that I will not tackle deeply in this comment) is reincarnation. We are told that we will rise on the last day in Scripture. But Rome fornicated with paganism (Norse-like, but Greek in origin) to give us this idea of an immortal soul! The Pope is not in Heaven or hell and is definitely in a place called purgatory. He “sleeps with the fathers” (not “soul-sleep”) and waits for that great and terrible day. We are filled with a Spirit (breath of life). In the English translation, the world soul is used 1700 times and never once called immortal. We will be resurrected as Christ was (The Blessed Hope), we will not die, go to Heaven or hell and then be reincarnated for judgment to be allowed into Heaven or hell (lake of fire).
Let us be Bareans! The Bareans searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true! Let us not forget that not one book of the “new testament” existed at the time of their noble searching.
Let us remember that the Law, the whole Law is put in us. Simply read all of Psalm 119. Here we read of a man that almost redundantly states he delights in ALL of the Law, statues, commandments, etc.! Oh what we could learn from this Psalm that we might find ourselves pleading with God for him to never remove His Law from us.
The point of all my rambling is to reiterate the crux of my article. I am trying to present a “new perspective” to the common belief of the Law. The point being is that the Word provides direct and blatant contradictions to that theory. I listed many, yet have not received an answer to one. I am trying to get people to think: “I can find a verse or two that seems to support my theology, but Yeshua, Peter, James, and Paul; contradict that theology and I don’t have an answer to it. The Law being intact, as foreign as it seems to me, is supported by ALL of Scripture. What must I now do?”
From the one comment you made about keeping the festivals not being sin. That may be a popular view, but if it really is part of His Law (Torah)… and if He did command them… “sin is transgression of the Law” (please don’t confuse this with me saying it is salvation)
You also asked what we do with the sacrificial system. I had actually answered this before and thus it was probably the reason for Erik’s question. Yeshua IS our sacrifice for the sacrificial system. If I am commanded to take first fruits, in my hands to the temple on the a certain day of the month… and Yeshua gives Himself as my First Fruits, He is substituting Himself for what is in my hands! The day still exists, He IS my sacrifice. Where is the temple today? It’s me! I am keeping the Law by observing His day and bringing the First Fruits (Yeshua) into (through reflection, prayer, jubilation, holy convocation, etc.) the temple (Me)! How beautiful is that!
Let us live Eze. 36:26 which God tells us through His prophet in the “old testament” (before the cross) that He will put His entire Law in us.
I hope you receive this with the love it was intended.
Shalom and God bless!
P.S. I did not list Messianic as a protestant theology as I feel they are more of a remnant theology than protestant.
April 5th, 2005 at 5:20 pm
Shane, thanks for clarifying some things I had wondered about (e.g., sacrificial laws–I must have missed your or Erik’s comments about that earlier).
We have VERY similar views on the Law and the Word, though Ryan and I do not officially keep the festivals, etc. Our pastor regularly teaches on the way that Jesus is integral to the true meaning of each Feast/Festival, so I am familiar with that and rejoice in it as you do.
So: we keep sacrificial laws through the Sacrifice of Christ…makes sense to me.
May I ask–and again, forgive me if you have answered this, and if you have, just point me to the post–what do you do with this?
Col 2:11-14,
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
I am not saying you interpret this wrongly–I am just wanting to know HOW you interpret this passage. Is the “written code” here the intricacies of the Law? If not, what is it? I am really interested in your viewpoint, so please do not think I am arguing with you.
April 5th, 2005 at 7:26 pm
Kristin,
Thank you! You understand what Shane and I are talking about in our articles. Because we are Christians and Messianic Jews, we are observing the sacrificial system now! Christ did not end the sacrificial system, he simply internalized with the rest of the Torah(Law).
Shane, have fun with Colossians 2! If you would assistance, just yell!
Shalom to you Kristin,
Erik
April 6th, 2005 at 11:01 am
Shane, Erik, I have a feeling that I’m not communicating very well. That must be true, because you’re spending a lot of bandwidth going over the things we agree upon. So I’m going to try to summarize again. If I misrepresent your thoughts, please let me know.
We agree that we are saved by faith, not by works.
We agree that works are a necessary proof of that saving faith.
We agree of the unity of the church — that we as Gentile Christians have been grafted on to the Jewish tree, so to speak, and that those Jews who reject Messiah have been cut off.
We agree that if we are Christian then we will want to keep his commands.
We agree that celebrating the Festivals are a fantastic way to acknowledge what God has given us.
Now, to move on. . .
The commands to “love the Lord your God. . . and love your neighbor as yourself” are a summary of the OT, so shouldn’t it make sense that they are taken from the OT? No problem there.
Our major disagreement is that I consider the Law fulfilled in Jesus Christ, where as the two of you do not. I’ve made my point from Scripture. So the obedience we live out is a response to Christ’s gift. Certainly breaking the commands which are to govern our moral behavior is sin. Yet our disagreement is that while saying that you observe the whole Law, you do not observe the sacrificial system — except to say that “Yeshua IS our sacrifice for the sacrificial system.” In essence, you keep the sacrificial laws via Jesus Christ. And strangely enough, we agree here as well.
Where we part is that I say that Jesus is our firstfruits (as Shane does as well above). But I have claimed that Jesus thus fulfills the festival in the same way that He fulfills the sacrificial system. Jesus is my firstfruits, thus making it unnecessary to celebrate the festival per se, but instead making it possible that I celebrate Jesus as my firstfruits every single day! The Festivals themselves become shadows. Shadows which point to Christ, of course, but just shadows. And Paul, in the passage Kristen asked about tells us that we are not to let anyone pass judgment upon us because of festivals, diet, etc. for the very reason that these are not the important things. The important things are found in Christ.
The argument that the Council at Jerusalem gave the Gentiles a couple of commands to get started and waited for them to pick up the rest later contradicts the entire context for the passage and the Council as a whole. It is not a sin to be uncircumsized. It is not a sin to eat pork. It is not a sin to not celebrate the Festival of Weeks. Those are the very shadows of which Paul wrote.
That’s the crux of the matter, gentlemen. Your position (at least as I understand it) is not a new argument to me, as I searched through those concepts before I finally came to a better understand of what God has given us in Christ Jesus. I don’t mean to come off as proud and haughty any more than you mean to come off sounding condescending — it’s all a weakness of using only the written word to communicate, I understand that. But in spite of that handicap, I hope I’ve made myself as clear as possible, and like Kristen, I wonder how you interpret the Colossians passage.
Now if we had a LOT more time, we could talk about your assumptions about the church at Rome and the Book of Revelation. . .
April 6th, 2005 at 12:49 pm
Shane–I read the entirety of your article last night and have questions, but I left the printout at home!
Also, let me know if we need to take this discussion to the Forum.
April 6th, 2005 at 12:59 pm
Rev-Ed, I am unsure why I seem condescending towards you. My apologies. I was trying to further draw out my reasoning as it seemed to be unclear. I also tried to point out the things that are continually “avoided”. I understand how that may come across that way, but please believe me that it is not meant that way. I am a servant of God and no greater than any of His children.
Your summarization of our agreements seemed right on. I think a summary of the disagreement is this:
The only difference is that I feel God gives us the guide of works and I cannot pick a subset of them.
Everyone can provide verse here or there to prove the view they want to see of God. What I have been asking is if we are seeing the view God wants us to see?
To put in bluntly (only for clarification, so please understand), it seems you avoid Scriptures that directly contradict what you are saying. I know that sounds harsh, and I apologize, but I fear that in social grace, I tend to water-down or sacrifice my point. I tell you the truth, if you show me a contradiction, I will put aside my belief to find God’s true will. I want, and I am sure we all do, to find God’s perfect will for us!
I’m not sure I can explain more clearly the two commands. They were commandments of the Torah. They were not just teachings of Moses. They were the Law that God spoke to Moses and commanded him to teach. Forgive me if I do not understand how something either shadowy (meant negatively or gone away) or nailed to the cross would be taught to obey?
You gave a list of things that aren’t sin. Where do you draw the line? Is it sin, to not “love the Lord your God”? Is it sin, to not “love your neighbor as yourself”? Is it a sin to murder? My guess is that we would agree these are sins. I think you are saying that we should obey only the moral parts of the Law?
While I disagree with that; here is why. We agree that only God can give commandments. I am sure we agree that we cannot observe doctrines of men as commandments of God. If anyone changes the Law of God it must be God or His son. I’m sure we agree that binding and loosing does not mean the apostles were free to change the law to whatever they wanted. My long drawn out point is that God gave a command to love Him. In the “moral law” or Decalogue, He gave us four ways to do that; is it a sin to break them? How then do we observe any other day than Sabbath? Love is a relationship and we love Him on His day. Some say that Yeshua IS our Sabbath, yet He is Lord OF the Sabbath. Out of all of the Decalogue, how does it make any sense that only one (two if you are catholic) is redefined by man? Yeshua never once gave a sermon on the redefinition of Sabbath as He did on murder, adultery, etc.
I am putting together a new article now on all of Colossians 2, though I did address the shadows previously. I will post a comment when the thread has been moved… I promise this time!
Briefly, how does not letting anyone pass judgment mean they are done away with? Why does it not mean, keep them and don’t let anyone tell you how? I’ll go deeper in the article.
The Law is a mirror, tutor or custodian, and a shadow. That’s not to say that it is bad, but rather that it points us to The One to help us obey.
I almost forgot, my view of Rome is actually based on Daniel and Revelation. Amazingly the prophecies that teach us when Messiah would come (70 weeks) also teach us of anti-Messiah, the dark ages (1260 days), the two witnesses (The Law and the Prophets), etc. The order of kingdoms is amazingly accurate in Daniel and in order. In Revelation they are the same only in reverse order! (Looking back through history) Additionally, the list of exceptions given to clean meats (Leviticus) mirrors the same kingdoms! While I don’t claim to be all knowing, I would classify my views as more than assumptions.
April 6th, 2005 at 4:14 pm
Looking forward to the Colossians article. I did realize some things in my reading of your article, Colossians, Acts, and some scriptures you gave last night…but I’ll have to wait until tomorrow to go into it!
April 6th, 2005 at 5:55 pm
Ah… I can’t believe you’d leave me hanging like that!
April 7th, 2005 at 7:25 pm
I decided that since context is very important to do a full commentary on all of Colossians 2 rather than just 11-14. Hope this explains it better. You can click here to read it.
Shalom.
April 7th, 2005 at 11:25 pm
Shane -
You missed my point about the condescending tone. I could take your comments as condesending, but I know that’s not the way you intend them. So your perception of my thinking isn’t necessarily accurate. I wrestle with all of Scripture, but there is no way I can agree with your conclusions.
I love you brother. But it’s fairly obvious that you are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. You are reading into the text instead of taking the clear meaning out of it. You seemed so wed to your “new perspective to the common belief of the Law” that you are willing to ignore the context of much of the New Testament. I have shown you contradictions and you have either ignored the passages or found a “new perspective” on it unwarranted by the text.
For example, you wrote: “The only difference is that I feel God gives us the guide of works and I cannot pick a subset of them.” Yet you do. You do not sacrifice animals because Christ is that sacrifice. Yet my argument from the beginning has been that Christ is also the firstfruits, the atonement, etc. yet you claim that is picking out a subset and yours in not. Certain laws have been fulfilled to the point where only shadows remain.
So, my friend, I’m done. I’ve argued in good faith, and I’ve even enjoyed the experience. However I don’t have the time to commit to a discussion where my views aren’t seriously considered. It’s bad enough I have to preach to a few people in my church who won’t listen, I should do the same in my spare time! But, we’re not arguing about essentials. When we meet in heaven, you can tell me I was right!
Peace to you, my friend.
April 8th, 2005 at 7:18 am
I guess you got your parting shots in. Strange. None of us have enough time, Rev-Ed.
I’ll only say two things, if you even come back. You have never shown me once that my view is “unwarranted in text”, just that you can find texts that seem to serve your view.
With all due respect, you have just become either willing disrespectful or forgetful. I have always contended that I do sacrifice as you do. Viewing Yeshua AS my sacrifice does not mean what you are trying to make it. (done away with or picking a subset) Honestly, I don’t think any would read that from my words and nor did you.
One additional thing for clarification, I used “new perspective” in quotes for a reason… because it is not “new” at all, just uncommon.
If you are right Ed and I have “done too much”… Amein! Praise HaShem!
Shalom.
April 8th, 2005 at 9:32 am
Sorry, Shane. I don’t mean to be offering parting shots. I tried to point out one last time that if you could say that I was doing away with or picking a subset of the Law, you were doing the same thing, for we each use the same reasoning. It’s pretty easy for me to grasp, but apparently hard for me to communicate so that we understand one another.
No hard feelings my brother. I wish you God’s peace.
April 15th, 2005 at 6:54 am
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/ostara.html
http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/dt_holidays.html?a=usma&c=holidays&id=1991
I hope the above links may add to your
research on this subject.
Blessed Be..
April 15th, 2005 at 4:14 pm
The Pagan has upheld Adonai’s truth! (Pagan by their own reference) Never thought I’d say that! Please, stop back often!
Thanks for the links.
April 18th, 2005 at 12:06 pm
I have a few friends who are practicing pagans(by their admission) who know all about this stuff. About how pagan many of mainstream Christianity’s and Catholicism’s holidays are. It pagans know it. Most Jewish people know it. Messianic Jewish people know it. Even many atheists know it. It seems the only group who do not seem to know and/or care are the many mainstream Christians and Catholics. The very people who observe these pagan days! May God bless you through His Son Yeshua HaMashiach(Jesus The Christ),
Erik
September 1st, 2006 at 12:49 pm
Keep up the great work on your blog. Best wishes WaltDe
September 2nd, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Is it not a proof that the Torah (only
Testament)was given by G-d to the world
via the Jewish people to read this
week’s portion:Ki Tzese=Deuteronomy?
1-Torah completed over 3300 years
ago! 3000 years before Socialism or
Democracy as we know it!
2-Commandments that conflict with
greed and uncaring instincts: share
food with the poor/ take care of the
widow and her children/lend money
freely to the poor-never pressure or
embarass them/and much more.
3- Contrast these commandments with
all societies 3300 years ago! ex.use
children as sacrifices/ eat everything
you want alive or dead!/let the poor
beg and/or starve-be greedy-little or
no compassion/war as foreign policy!
4-I suggest NO person including Moses could possibly have introduced
such contrary caring/sharing commandments in that era.Only an
extraordinary “intelligence” did.
5-Torah: “a light to the nations”.
Many governments/institutions and
idol worshipers, unfortunately, still are wearing very dark sunglasses!
6-I’ll go with G-d and Torah over
the cruel, dishonest and greedy.
Michael Eisenkraft
Staten Island NY
Healthy Happy New Year to all! (No=
Jews do not get drunk at Times Square on the eve of Rosh Hashanah)
P.S. Have some fun writing or thinking of many other Torah/secular
contrasts and confirm which lifestyle is best for one and all.
January 12th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Hi, Folks,
I’ve loved reading your discussion. It is wonderful that there are people who still at least consider God. Looking outside can be pretty glum. I hope that matters of the Law will not become an overwhelming barrier between us/y’all. And it is unfortunate that the written word cannot represent us as we would wish to represent ourselves. Often, I think, the assumptions of the reader create a personality for the writer which is, in fact, inaccurate. So we find ourselves appologizing for speaking openly. I will, undoubtedly, find myself in the same position, should anyone actually read this.
At this point, I will introduce myself. I am an idiot.
That being said, I find one set of verses in particular that seems to speak in opposition to some of the comments of Shane and Erik. Perhaps the two of you or anyone else might explain how these verses match your theology.
Working out of a NAS, Galatians 3:16-29 seems to indicate that 1) The Law wasn’t given until 430 years (v17) after the promise to Abraham, which would seem to mean that, no, Cain and Abel did not have the Law to guide them in their manners of sacrifice. 2)The Law was added because the Isrealites simply couldn’t seem to do anything right (v19) as a tutor (v24) which we, since we now have Christ, are no longer under (v25).
In addition, what would be the point in becoming a Jew if, in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek (v28)? It is by being in Christ, Who is the Seed of Abraham, that we become the seed of Abraham (v29), not by work, or ritual, or the Law.
By Biblical principle, we know that, while pondering God’s Law is a great resource in getting to know Him better and meditating on His Law will help us to draw closer to Him, our works cannot earn us salvation (Romans) because in comparison to the Holy perfection of God, even our best works are like filthy rags (Isaiah).
I sincerely look forward to your correction. And in your response, should anyone actually ever read this, please remember that you are trying to explain your view to an idiot.
with Love and Hope-Dennis
P.S. - Please pray for the Mormons. They have sided with the Adversary and most of them don’t even know it. - D
January 12th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
Also, I really like the graphics at the top of your page. The tree is awesome and the color shades are great. - Dennis